Thursday, December 25, 2014

Issues and ideas on employees and background verification




Happy Christmas to all readers of my blog and friends globally. 
Yesterday, December 24, 2014, at HR Shapers group, we initiated discussion on "The Issues and Process of Vendor Verification after the Uber incident", but, however, the discussion moved to Overall background verification in the organisation including employee background verification- key points and issues".

This was perhaps most actively discussed topic by all HR professionals in HR Shapers Group. I love this initiated of Ashish Gakrey as many HR groups exist and many discussion happens, but having a specific topic discussion everyday has a very different impact. At MTHR Global event, every time such discussion is not possible. The limitation of tweetchat is, you have to present in one hour only to get the input and if you miss, you cannot have participatory learning. 

The discussion is very important in current business scenario where greed has taken over everything. 

ACFE.com confirms following are the risk with the vendors:


Strategic risks
Reputation risks
Industry risks
Geographical risks
Compliance risks - Compliance with PF Act, ESIC Act, Contract Labour Regulations and Abolitions Act and other labour laws.
Operational risks
Transaction risks
Credit risks
Efficiency risk
Quality risk

I have modified the list as per need of India. 

We need to be increasingly aware about the risk as, whenever we engage a third party in our business, we share our brands reputation with them. 

Further, I had posted articles based on my experience on employee verification. Following are the link for the same,

I had written following article in July 2012 almost 1/12 years back. It is self explanatory.



The discussion was very fruitful. Following is the transcript. It is the most discussed topic since I have joined. This provides lot of insight for both- experienced HR professionals as well as freshers. 

[24/12 09:44] Discussion Proposor: How effective is our / vendor's process of background verification ?


[24/12 09:45] ‪Discussion Proposor: We have seen what has happened in the recent cab incident



[24/12 09:47] ‪Discussion Proposor: And it has been observed that less importance is given to this area, till something goes wrong.



[24/12 09:48] ‪Moderator: Hey Prasad...this is really great topic and need of an hour..some1 was pushing me for this...



[24/12 09:49] ‪Discussion Proposor: Yeah....especially in India, where we do not have central systems and computerized record system, it becomes very crucial



[24/12 09:51] ‪Moderator: Today’s Topic by Group II Member - Prasad Kulkarni, VP HR from a leading investment banking company - How effective is our / vendor's process of background verification? We have seen what has happened in the recent cab incident...And it has been observed that less importance is given to this area, till something goes wrong...looking forward input and opinion from group I and II members...



[24/12 10:02] Participant 2: Good topic to analyse id's of the group members.



[24/12 10:05] Participant 3: Vendor process of background verification is generally an outsourced activity. It is the PRIMARY responsibility to accept it only after 100% Validation. Treat this activity as seriously as HR, Legal compliances. It is a health & safety issues for any organisation.



[24/12 10:06] Participant 3: Principal employer & HR are 100% responsible.



[24/12 10:07] Participant 4: Without taking names of agencies..
1. It works well for qualification verification.
2. Criminal records...they verify with police station of current res address only. If any crime committed in another area or city unlikely to be captured
3. Employment verification done with only those names candidate provide. They are bound to give positive feedback.
Many cos do it as legal compliance to show to clients.




[24/12 10:09] Participant 2: I think qualification verification is also done part of employment verification.



[24/12 10:10] Participant 5: In overseas, it is a standard practice to verify the complete details, including education, work experience, date of birth etc. In india it can be done through various outsourcing firms.



[24/12 10:12] Participant 5: Recommendation letters are also kept as reference
[24/12 10:14] ‪Discussion Proposor: We are aware of what have we told to the agency for BACKGROUND VERIFICATION however, do we really monitor / check if they are following the correct route ? Or we are happy with the Green report ? Employment checks is little easier than Education and especially litigation check....it is always better to do some audit or sample check



[24/12 10:14] ‪Discussion Proposor: With the vendor



[24/12 10:16] ‪Discussion Proposor: I have seen outsourced agencies doing the check just for the name



[24/12 10:16] ‪Discussion Proposor: Not all



[24/12 10:16] Participant 5: There is provision to have a external audit report through any Big 4 firms.



[24/12 10:17] ‪Discussion Proposor: Yeah....that would help.



[24/12 10:17] Participant 5: It adds to cost but worth investing.



[24/12 10:18] ‪Discussion Proposor: We should never look at it from cost perspective. The risk you may be taking will be way higher.



[24/12 10:23] Participant 5: Agreed.. HR should build awareness.



[24/12 10:23] Participant 6: Is "background check' a mandatory compliance for ISO 27001 certified companies ?



[24/12 10:27] ‪Moderator: It seems general tendency on this issue by employer not to spend any money n proper verification... its assumed all would be taken care by the agency...
[24/12 10:34] Participant 5: Now a days some recruitment firms give written assurance before sending CVs but for senior positions only.



[24/12 10:38] Participant 5: Interesting Stats around 3-4 percent senior executives in India have  legal cases registered on them under various offences including criminal 
[24/12 10:50] ‪Discussion Proposor: At the same time we tend to ignore our security staff, pantry staff and cab drivers.



[24/12 10:53] Participant 7: A question for the Group members  - the background check broadly contains the following elements:

Past employers

Education qualifications
Personal references
Criminal records
Drug test records

What is that we currently focus on? What areas could be strengthened? How to cover a wider base of management employees, staff/workers and  contractors/vendors ?

[24/12 10:54] ‪Discussion Proposor: You will have to break down them into sections....1. Employability   2.



[24/12 10:55] ‪Discussion Proposor: 2. Risk / litigation



[24/12 10:56] ‪Discussion Proposor: Previous employment, education, personal references would fall in category 1... employability.



[24/12 10:56] Participant 7: Perry that's an interesting classification. Thanks. Do we need to look at both to ensure holistic review for employability ?



[24/12 10:56] ‪Discussion Proposor: Criminal / civil litigation, drug test, identity check would fall in the second one.



[24/12 10:57] ‪Discussion Proposor: Both are important.



[24/12 10:59] ‪Discussion Proposor: It is always better that, we as an organisation do the checks for our contract staff too....the contract agencies may choose a small vendor with limited facility to do the checks.



[24/12 11:08] Participant 8: In our organization, we do education verification for all employees n manager n above level education plus criminal plus previous employment
[24/12 11:10] Participant 9: 1.I echo the thought  that we at least have some focus for permanent staff background verification, but what about support staff and their verification.



[24/12 11:10] Participant 8: Also for support staff and contract employees.



[24/12 11:12] Participant 9: 2. I think it's an illusion to think that adding a criminal record, etc. are, our background verification  means they have cleared  it. India doesn't have the live database  to have this 100 percent  correct. So these should be completed by having the risk remark.



[24/12 11:34] Participant 5: Self declaration is helpful as a backup.



[24/12 14:04] ‪Moderator: Very good discussion and input guys...will share group II input in a moment...



[24/12 14:04] ‪Moderator: Today Topic by Group II Member - Prasad Kulkarni, VP HR from BNY Mellon, Pune - How effective is our / vendor's process of background verification? We have seen what has happened in the recent cab incident...And it has been observed that less importance is given to this area, till something goes wrong...looking forward input and opinion from group I n II members...



[24/12 14:10] ‪Moderator: Moderator2: Good top... ..One quick input is police verifications are a big farce. They are all oral or verbal and we know what it means...unless we insist for written police clearance. .. Arch tests would be always a big balloon with Gas.



Moderator0: True, but written police verification except Maharashtra, wes stopped 6 months ago.



Moderator1: We can avoid that by having court clearance.



Moderator2: True...hence we are considering both police verification and also legal clearance....to check if there are any course cases ...against an individual.



Moderator0: Yes, both together are the best...verbal verification is done by the police station...its necessary to have a trustworthy vendor in such cases.



Moderator1: Do we need both? Is court clearance not good enough?



Moderator2: Ankur,  you said it. There are rogue vendors we need to show door....hence tight vendor selection and monitoring are required.



Moderator0: True DD...I have seen both sides and hence its important to go with a trusted name to safeguard your business.



Moderator0: Most businesses do not want to go with fly by night vendors since cost saving here means fake or substandard checks by them.



Moderator3: Police verification is local jurisdiction based so really not relevant as people move residences and cities and states. We use FADV for criminal record database verification check and also, for India and Global database checks with regulatory agencies and the media. As an additional measure, We ask candidates to show us original education, address proof and last 2 employer docs at the time of joining.



Moderator2: Ankur and Rajesh. ..well said. Actually, it has to be a holistic  and integrated strategy,   effort and approach.



Moderator2: If our hiring teams are very vigilant and implement tough hi right standards...50 percent of the  goals are easily achieved at step 1.



Moderator3: With vendor resources such as housekeeping, security, office boys, outsourced clerical resources, our Admin team does a similar document verification check in-house and we do external checks such as Address Verification and past employer. For employees and outsourced workers in payment process handling roles, we also do a CIBIL check.



Moderator: It seems general tendency on this issue by employer not to spend any money n not to do proper verification... its assumed all would be taken care by agency...



Moderator2: Ashish....This si another challenge. ...employers avoid investing in hiring.



Moderator4: This is due to high business pressure and to avoid immediate billing loss.



Moderator2: Moderator4....This is the duality of business nature...you want to have the cake and eat it too...We need to have our priorities right. Often HR leaders fail to set it right with business leaders.  I have not seen HR folks helping business leaders with adequate rationale for their proposals ...including me.



Moderator4: Hahaha true Moderator2. That's the reality. Business always gets priority.



Moderator5: We have seen struggles on employment verification... Different vendors and now look settled with FADV for a while now. There are doubts on the process... But we also need to appreciate the limitation, we set up offers... Low response rate from police, limited centralized record system, universities that go bust, loose accreditation, fake racket around.. What has worked well is that business manager understand the associated risk, and knowing strong regulatory framework governing banks - financial services tolerance is even lower. Many times we have pinned aren't pushy line managers... No one wants to tow the lines when it comes to governance. So No one joins before all checks are done. It’s lengthy.. Time consuming




Moderator6: Police verification is better than court...though it is stopped...now a days .. For Pune.. All police verifications are done from the commissioner's office and is it really time consuming. ..If the case is not presented in court then the court will not have any records...checking financial fraud is easier than criminal..




Moderator7: The choice of service provider is very important. We have changed some service providers based on quick checks.



[24/12 14:12] ‪Moderator: Moderator7: The choice of service provider is very important. We have changed some service providers based on quick checks where we found that they were not really diligent in checking the background and were giving clearances. Many of them seek information from the public domain (aka Google search) and pad on the info to you.



Moderator8: Would like to site aviation experience.... Where in police verification is a must... though it's time consuming, takes 15 days to 30 days at times.....but worth spending .....these days its all the more essential from terrorism point of view ....court is even lengthier and time consuming process and as sited before if no case presented against a person would be insufficient data to acknowledge the background ....



Moderator2: Let is be fair.  Police stations have no where with all in terms of resources,  timelines, system to undertake this task honestly.  All they do is to check if anyone figures in the complaint book or FIRs.  We all know how tough it is to file FIR and even to avoid complaints filing there are methods to circumvent.  In my view...Police verification as background check for hiring is a big ....gas balloon and a cur tot which Indian  impairs use to dangle I front of customers. Just ask your auditors to dig deep...you will discover the fallacy around this. Sorry,  but straight from heart. ..
Moderator2: Amit‘ni system is good or bad..it is the user who makes it so.



Moderator3: Agree! And on top of it, including such a process impacts the joining date and impacts business. Because, we see no merit in it and continue to still have it, then we have to deal with the resulting delays and helplessness.



Moderator1: I guess it's coming across as the next best option in the absence of something more credible. Now the question is what is the alternative or are there ways to impact the current verification process? Any best practices here?



Moderator8: DD I would definitely find out from some contacts in Mumbai police .....is it d way they do the verification... Cause I was told it happens exactly d same way it happens for passport....



Moderator1: Amit in that case it's still a problem. We all know what happens when they come for verification.



Moderator3: Now-a-days not all always they don't come home. They call and ask you to come with docs.


Govind: Yes, that’s true. They send the file for verification to the birth place mention in the certificate (if bribe not paid, and they just check criminal record in their area).


Moderator3: Now-a-days not all always do they come home. They call and ask you to come with documents.



Moderator9: Think ! even terriorsts manage to get fake passport.



[24/12 14:45] ‪Moderator: Guys...looking forward post lunch input from other members...




[24/12 14:47] ‪Moderator: Today Topic by Group II Member - Prasad Kulkarni, VP HR from an investment banking organisation - How effective is our / vendor's process of background verification ? We have seen what has happened in the recent cab incident...And it has been observed that less importance is given to this area, till something goes wrong...looking forward input n opinion from group I n II members...




[24/12 15:37] ‪Moderator: At XYZ..We work with a big four for our verification process and they have done well so far. Though as a practice, we do verification for all employees as a practice, we had maximum defaulters (fraud candidates) from Hyderabad and around. We are alert in recruiting while hiring in that belt. It is also important to verify the background checks of contract staff like house keeping drivers, etc. Some years back We had a case wherein one of our housekeeping staff was found to have some criminal cases on him . Though the contracting agency was aware they did not inform us. We immediately terminated our contract with that agency.
[24/12 15:38] ‪Moderator: We do all of the above...100% verification of all components, including employment, education, criminal, reference, global database, CIBIL, address (physical), ROC check for previous employers...and we employ a Big 4 firm to do it. Have worked with FADV too, there are some smaller good firms like A Check Global and IDfy too...IDfy is awesome...offer a very good online platform. Time taken is always worth the risk...our process is such that we  initiate beforehand if docs r received else after Date of Joining...either ways risk is eliminated within a month. Also, we pay for it from HR budget, bulk cases help manage the cost. Glad to say that I am one of those who influenced Business and Finance to opt for this and we have zero tolerance for Red cases except for the genuine ones where risk is documented and written off. Of course we work with business for replacement before exiting in most cases. Some pockets like Hyderabad contribute to 70-80% of the Red background verification cases we receive and this has been my observation over the past decade too. We subscribe to a list of fake companies which is circulated to the recruiters to refer too, before offering the candidate thereby reducing the risk and instances of Red cases. Fake docs and companies continue to be the biggest contributors to such cases. I am a firm believer in deterrence where risks cannot be eliminated, it keeps fake cases away.



[24/12 15:39] ‪Moderator: Also there was a fake vendor caught by the police 6 months ago...owing to that they have stopped written verification across India except in some places



[24/12 15:55] Govind Sharma: Well, for all our car hiring, services we make it mandatory for them to have clause that they have ensured background verification even for the housekeeping and security. We ask them to provide us a copy of the same and repeat it every year. Before finalizing a vendor, we take feedback from their existing 3 clients and then only we take a call. 
[24/12 16:36] Participant 4: Looks there is no full proof system in place as i read all feedbacks so far !



Police verification is done through some Dalals or ex-policemen and are all oral.
Anyway police have no records in digitised form which is accessible all over India.
I see companies do it as part of compliance.


Even after doing these people with ISIS were found working in MNCs :(
All agencies have limitations and use local resources on whom they have no control.




[24/12 16:43] Participant 20: Police verification is limited to one police station, which in itself is a limitation. While hiring for international and C level positions, we also undertook media check and INTERPOL check. But, as most have already mentioned the current system has limitations. Organisations go ahead with Minor discrepancies. A point to be noted is that once we had an employee show us an SMS where he was threatened with dire reference check if he joined us. For the sake of confidentiality lets keep it as a Financial services organisation. The report came RED, but jointly with Business agreement we made a note of the sms and went ahead with the hire.



[24/12 16:45] Participant 20: There are ways and means through which these could be managed, but organizations, especially businesses would not have the bandwidth and patience to go through. As most hires are needed as of yesterday.



[24/12 17:01] ‪Moderator: For some of the clients  that I have worked with, they sometimes ask for references from at least 3 previous clients where I have done my workshops. In these cases the HR has always diligently collected feedback on the workshop and the methodology of how comedy was used to achieve L&D objectives. Atleast in that case it was not just an academic exercise.



[24/12 17:01] ‪Moderator: True Vikram...it is the employers intent that matters in these cases...given the no of terrorism n other cases of unruly elements.




[24/12 17:02] Participant 21: W/o naming firms - BFSI setups pay special attention to this aspect and have empaneled vendors who apart from doing the regular checks even go to the extent of checking financial history, C Card defaulters, CIBIL and  family background verification at a mid/senior level..



[24/12 17:03] ‪Moderator: Large orgs cannot afford to moss out....We also collect self declaration and gap declaration at the time of joining and permission to share docs for BACKGROUND VERIFICATION and Insurance purposes as per the IT Act...This is an ISO 27001 requirement too.



[24/12 17:03] Participant 21: And these vendors in some cases are independent of recruiters and serve as a second level filter after a regular ref check is done by the empaneled vendor.



[24/12 17:05] Participant 4: Itna karke bhi a lady was detained at airport as criminal Ravi Poojari' s wife and now police say mistaken identity!
What do you expect from people?




[24/12 17:50] Participant 20: That was lack of intellect ;)and correct application of mind.



[24/12 17:50] Participant 20: If it had happened with a politician none of the policemen would be in the force.



[24/12 18:06] ‪Moderator: You are right Ashish..the BFSI setups are so particular about background checks that even a CC defaulter is not allowed to be on boarded for their assignments. We at LnTinfotech do a very rigorous BACKGROUND VERIFICATION in terms of their education, past employment history, CIBIL records, criminal check, police verification and also drug test.




[24/12 18:15] Participant 22: Indeed Ashish



[24/12 18:15] Participant 22: i have worked in IT and BFSI.



[24/12 18:23] Participant 22: Hence i can say the check is strict in case of Bfsi cos here companies deal with public money. So it is good to avoid people who have CIBIL issues or even credit card default since it also speaks about intent of a person.



[24/12 18:24] Participant 22: So bankers n financial organisations need to be doubly careful to avoid fraudulence.




[24/12 18:36] ‪Participant 23: We do preliminary checks like verifying original certificates, collecting Six months Bank statement along with Three months latest payslips and background verification through agency for past employment, education and collect  the local police verification certificate for all our male employees'.



[24/12 18:38] Participant 4: Why this discrimination?



[24/12 18:44] ‪Participant 23: Ours is a female oriented production facility 80% are females




[24/12 18:48] Participant 4: So what? In Mulund a lady officer in a Bank was instrumental in robbery, which came in paper, you might have read.
I feel there should not be any discrimination.



[24/12 19:03] Participant 24: Verification checks play a very important role and it's important to have a reputed agency doing the same. Cases have been found wherein negative checks have come in and necessary actions have been taken (apologies for the late revert)



[24/12 19:06] ‪Discussion Proposor: An all round, well designed BACKGROUND VERIFICATION check may help to reduce the risk of employing an unwanted candidate....World Database Checks also help in addition to Court Record check.



[24/12 19:07] ‪Discussion Proposor: We also do Fingerprinting check for employees working on US process. It is a mandatory requirement and the fingerprints are sent to FBI for verification.



[24/12 19:07] ‪Participant 23: There is no discrimination, we recruit candidates around the surroundings of the neighbouring villages were lot of thefts occur in d park and to have a control n avoid sexual harassment issues, v r doing this practice.



[24/12 19:13] ‪Discussion Proposor: @ Ashish....very good inputs from Group I people.



[24/12 19:30] Participant 25: Though we do background verification, but we also collect self declaration at the time of joining and undertaking for gap if discovered ever in future. Organisation can take necessary action if any discrepancy.



[24/12 19:34] ‪Discussion Proposor: Self declaration looks to be a good option but is accepted only internally....in case of any issue, government authorities will not accept it



[24/12 19:36] Participant 25: once is that at times authorities does not cooperate... 
One of the experience with one employee verification-  There was university which mentioned that documents are fake without checking records. Later employee had filed complained against them and the outcome was that the documents were correct... it could even be vice versa.




[24/12 19:36] Participant 25: at times authorities does not cooperate... 
One of the experience with one employee verification-  There was university which mentioned that documents are fake without checking records. Later employee had filed complained against them and the outcome was that the documents were correct... it could even be vice versa.




[24/12 19:38] Participant 25: Not to be named, but one of the big group have hired a person in top management who was in the news for his misconduct (financial/legal) in his previous group. Case was open even at the time of next hiring...




[24/12 19:38] Participant 26: Self Declaration - We get it from the employees. Background verification - Its being outsourced by us. Reference Check - It's internally done by us. We have had lots of previous experiences and incidents n strictly adhere to the processes.




[24/12 19:41] Participant 25: We are also getting verification done from outsourced agency.  Reference check is not done for everyone. Its done by us only in cases where we are asked to.




[24/12 19:46] Participant 25: Generally last 2 employement and  academics are verified. For salary verification purpose, we also take 3 months salary slips and bank account statements before joining. (Which later also gets verified by 3rd party).




[24/12 19:46] Participant 27: since we have HR professionals from across industry can we not formalise the process and share it with various authorities and be on a common platform.




[24/12 19:48] Participant 4: Means what?




[24/12 19:50] Participant 27: What I meant is every org follows a process Nd we can standardise it and with the help of senior members make other authorities aware of the importance of background check.




[24/12 19:51] Participant 27: With this various authorities will also be cooperative.... I know it's a big ask, but it's doable.




[24/12 19:52] Participant 27: Recently, Bangalore police raided 30 IT companies in Bangalore who issued fake Exp certificates and informed other IT companies.




[24/12 19:59] ‪Moderator: wow....so much energy in the group...loving it...




[24/12 20:02] ‪Moderator: Group I equally live still....will share consolidated input..




[24/12 20:05] Participant 28: Its been such an insightful conversation 
Was a busy day today, so didn’t get a chance to respond. At ABCD, we have our inhouse team do the background checks..references from last 2 employers..plus 6mnths bank records and last 3 months salary slips. We lack as far as police verifications are concerned..




[24/12 20:11] Participant 4: Universities charge fee for verification, hence is reliable.
Rest all is voluntary including the Police. How will u ensure authenticity of such feedbacks?
How many times when we get calls from BACKGROUND VERIFICATION agencies, we seriously give feedback on our ex-employees?




Police officers are overburdened with work, will they really co-operate with any BACKGROUND VERIFICATION agency unless...!




[24/12 20:15] Participant 29: To my mind BACKGROUND CHECK has become a money spinning exercise....need to ask the question once again... 1. Why do we need to do BACKGROUND CHECK? 2. How was BACKGROUND CHECK done before IT/BPO industry existed? 2. How is BACKGROUND CHECK done in Core Industries now?




[24/12 20:16] Participant 27: Yes, Vijay I agree our cops are over burdened.... They can have separate units for this purpose who can coordinate within the police department.... I am sure our government will support this since this is a need of the hour

I am just thinking aloud



[24/12 20:17] Participant 29: The answer to quest 1 is we need BACKGROUND CHECK to ensure that we are hiring the right person with the right experience and right attitude·····




[24/12 20:19] Participant 29: Even today in core industries they do BACKGROUND CHECK to check the same attributes as answered in Q1




[24/12 20:19] Participant 4: Laks...very good question!


I am in HR since 1979, this practice got into our companies in mid 90s when MNCs made it as mandatory before awarding projects and accepting people from India.

My gut feel is core industries may not be doing any such BACKGROUND VERIFICATION at all  till date.




[24/12 20:21] Participant 29: And in core industries....one person from HR department calls the HR person from where they hire a candidate and check for the attributes...no other process.....except if you are  hiring at CXO level or those hired in finance department to handle money and so on.....unique positions...




[24/12 20:23] Participant 29: With Aadhar card....Passport...etc...we can establish identity of a person easily..




[24/12 20:24] Participant 29: As long as u hire people with good academic credentials from good academic institutions....and a good HR interview....u wl not need edu qualification check




[24/12 20:25] Participant 29: Unless the HR person has a doubt.




[24/12 20:26] Participant 29: So....unless dictated by customer....BACKGROUND CHECK shd be done by good HR depts...good HR people...




[24/12 20:26] Govind Sharma: I do not completely rely on the background verification agencies of people vendors, including employee what I have found that they follow their format that's it nobody applies mind. For instance, for last 2 years I have exposed various private universities selling degree in just 3 months, backdated and even clearing those students in the background / degree verification. Fee of them shut down, but many operating examples are EIILM, CMJ, MGU, Shridhar University, C V Raman university and the list is 40+ the agencies are basically just checking whether the university confirm the degree or not but nobody goes deeper to find out issues in these degrees which is matter of ethics and integrity then what's the use of such verification same about compensation and past employer background verification. People can take up to beyond our imagination




[24/12 20:27] Participant 29: The load on BACKGROUND CHECK service providers wl cm down....and they will start delivering better service....for those cases which are dictated by customer...




[24/12 20:28] Participant 29: Agree Govind....




[24/12 20:30] ‪Discussion Proposor: As I mentioned, you may wish to ignore 'employability' checks....but ignoring 'risk/litigation' related checks may prove harmful to the employees and organization.






[24/12 20:35] ‪Moderator: Thanks Laks for joining discussion and your input...




[24/12 20:43] ‪Moderator: Guys Welcome M Lakshmanan, Head Talent Management n Total Reward Mgt - L&T...




[24/12 20:43] ‪Moderator: With this....all our members intro done...I will publish once more all 80 members list for reference... proud 2hv each1 of u in d group...




[24/12 20:44] Participant 29: Yes....Ashish....thanks....




[24/12 20:53] Participant 4: Big Boss ke entry se Group House Full




[24/12 21:06] Govind Sharma: I disagree that good academic guarantee good human resources. Academic performance has nothing to do with individual performance.




[24/12 21:07] Participant 30: I second Govind




[24/12 21:07] Participant 25: Agree to Govind...


.

[24/12 21:07] ‪Discussion Proposor: Yup



[24/12 21:11] Participant 29: I was coming from the need to do academic checks....most fake certificates don’t come from VJTI or Loyola college....they come from unknown colleges....that Govind refered to...




[24/12 21:12] ‪Discussion Proposor: Not necessary.




[24/12 21:12] ‪Discussion Proposor: Its not only about fake certificates....ppl even forge them too,




[24/12 21:13] Participant 29: Good academics ensures a higher probability of good performers....not all good performers have excellent academics...but rarely do you have a guy with poor academics turning out to be a star performer.




[24/12 21:13] Participant 25: We can not block opportunity for people from less known universities... talent can be explored anywhere..




[24/12 21:13] Participant 31: True, I agree Sandhya...




[24/12 21:14] Participant 32: Today




[24/12 21:14] Participant 29: Agree....Sandhya...but ensure to check out credentials properly before hiring...




[24/12 21:15] Participant 32: Today when the demand is huge, we need to tap the resources for all colleges and groom them to our requirement, hence checks are to be focused to our requirement.




[24/12 21:15] Participant 29: Balaji...well said




[24/12 21:15] Participant 32: Checks are company and client specific too.




[24/12 21:16] Participant 25: Our live experience says that people scored in 70s are performing much better in many segments in comparison to those scored 90% +




[24/12 21:17] Participant 32: Agree and that is where the HR interview plays a crucial role.




[24/12 21:19] Participant 32: We need smart people than academics toppers.




[24/12 21:20] ‪Discussion Proposor: Are we not diverting from today's topic 
[24/12 21:22] ‪Moderator: We can't assume n trust anything unless proven either hence follow proper process....v all know everything can b made start fm doc till candidate appearing for interview..



[24/12 21:22] Govind Sharma: Let the talent come through all ways without barrier. To answer Laks Bill Gates, Newton, Steve Jobs, Dhirubhai Ambani, Rajkumar Hirani all are drop outs and not an academic performer.




[24/12 21:23] ‪Moderator: Prasad...somehow related points to 2day point....




[24/12 21:24] ‪Moderator: Somehow HR issues of our HR Community...




[24/12 21:25] Govind Sharma: By the way, from background verification of vendor to we moved to employee background :)




[24/12 21:26] ‪Moderator: Haaaa...promote kar diya...




[24/12 21:32] Participant 28: I feel various things come into play..sometime very good academics cannot ensure the person will be a top performer since someone with good rote memory can score excellent grades but he or she may not be able to put it into practical use.

We need to be vigilant and probe deep enough to ensure the authenticity of the person during the HR interview



[24/12 21:34] Participant 4: We HR guys are ustads in talking about big fundas, hence such things do crop in between




[24/12 21:36] Participant 6: Great going




[24/12 21:41] ‪Moderator: Guys here some grt input fm group I...like v promoted topic to employee background...group I extended to that which r good n bad third party verification agency...worth reading...




[24/12 21:49] Participant 33: Wonderful contributions from all of you




[24/12 21:51] ‪Moderator:


12/24/2014 17:06: Participant 34: There also ways to game the system by creating criteria that selectively disqualifies bidders other than the one you favourite.



Participant 35: Good points, extremely caught up with performance management related issues will share some thought towards late evening.




Participant 36: You are right Ashish..the BFSI setups are so particular about background checks that even a CC defaulter is not allowed to be onboarded for their assignments. We at LnTinfotech do a very rigorous BACKGROUND VERIFICATION in terms of their education, past employment history, CIBIL records, criminal check, police verification and also drug test.




Moderator3: Request everyone to also mention their top 2/3 pre-screening service providers in terms of your level of satisfaction on their quality checks and service. Also, what is the TAT on case closure that you get. Even in our organisation we do rigorous background check covering all terms through  external vendors and ask for experience letter/ reliving  letter as part of joining formality for all the past employment. If person found defaulter in any of these his employment or candidature stands withdrawn.




Participant 37: Good topic throughout the day, got some important insights which have been shared by Moderator2 sir and others.




Participant 37: In retail we do a  background check through third party agencies for cashiers as they handle cash transactions and for managers who take care of store openings and closing and keep keys with them. Agencies do residence check and employment check too. On the completion of checks they share report of complete verification and on the basis of which we allow new joinees to handle the given responsibilities.




Participant 38: Good topic today.. Have been travelling, so couldn’t contribute. I have tried FADV and have caught them giving incorrect records. They actually use their old verified data and share these days. Had used KPMG and was quite satisfied. Their reports are also good and elaborate. Their University & Police verifications are also proper, unlike other agencies. Authbridge is another decent market player. There are some small time vendors as well in the market, but such things are non compromised..
We have vendors like KPMG and CRP working for us and had been satisfied with the kindly of reports shared,




Participant 39: We are working with authbridge and their reports are satisfying...only police verification is doubtful because in many police stations, one can simply use a stamp on the report himself...




Participant 39: Authbridge provides great service.




Participant 39: And they are empaneled with GE as well.




Moderator2: As I see it on background checks. ..The demands from customers are going to be stringent...I know a case when a HR person was terminated because of the false background check that resulted in a huge money scam. ..and with each passing day background checks themselves will be under third party checks ...with customers insisting  companies get these done from a  specific approved vendor by them rather than any vendor approved by the company. So its in our own interest, we put our house in order before anyone tells us what's wrong in our processes.




Participant 39: I agree Moderator2... One of the parameters all customer like GE demand is that the BACKGROUND CHECK vendor must be a trusted name empaneled with them...




Moderator3: Anyone heard of or used Footprints?




Moderator0: Rajesh...I have used KPMG, IDfy, FADV, Authbridge, A Check Global and would rate KPMG and IDfy highest and at par...both are good and genuine, Authbridge is very poor on time commitments...35-40% delays, FADV is OK but not that cost effective...data integrity can be a concern, A Check Global is also fine not too bad.




Moderator0: No clue about footprints.




Moderator0: I know people who have had to clear their credit scores before joining banks and BFSI organisations...about 10 yes ago there were lots of credit card defaults resulting in lower settlements and all those folks suffer n get stuck now art loans, financial sector jobs etc,




Participant 39: I agree Ankur..The  First advantage is too costly.. But have not had my problem with the Authbridge.




[24/12 21:52] Participant 33: Hey Ashish, there is a mention in one of the posts from group I about subscribing to a fake companies list and ensuring checking against the same before issuing offer letter.




[24/12 21:52] ‪Moderator: Participant 39: I agree Ankur.. The First advantage is too costly.. But e not had my h problem with authbridge though.




Moderator2: Any feedback on CRP



Moderator0: Right Gaurav...other than delays we had no problem with Authbridge...




Moderator: wow....so much energy in the group...loving it.....Group II equally live still....will share consolidated input in a moment...please carry on...



Participant 38: I have had worst experience with FADV. They made huge mistakes in 3 cases and it could have resulted in the new joinee loosing job. We did evaluate CRP, Authbridge, KPMG and 1 more agency.. Forgetting the name.
Finally freezed on KMPG. Was too happy with the service & rates.
Authbridge is also decent - agreed in their delays. Have tried them as well in 1 of my org..CRP – haven’t heard great feedback about them.. So not too sure..CRP Reports are satisfying and delivered in time.




Moderator0: Guys IDfy is new on the block... based out of Sakinaka...I recommend they be tried...really good guys n tech used for ops tracking




Participant 38: @Ankur.. Most new players to enter the market will give you best rates & service as well. While there are giants already there, IDfy will have to give their best to capture the market...Just thoughts..




Moderator0: Sure Nik...just sharing my experience




Participant 38: If we look at the other side, its a good opportunity to try this vendor, since the already existing once would already have good amount of data collected by now & most would be repetitive in nature. You never know if they are actually doing all checks or just using the old data... This happened with FADV..




Moderator3: What is a typical TAT with KPMG and IDfy?




Participant 38: KPMG - it starts from 7 to 14 days depending on the verification. They have even delivered as low as 3 - 5 days in employer check.




Moderator3: Wow! FADV usually takes 14 days




Participant 38: Even for copy pasting database




Participant 39: Depends on the number of checks... Varies from 7 to 20 days




Participant 39: Also depends on time of the year...especially for educational credentials verification, but 20 days is normally the upper limit..Participant 38: True that GG... During exams or vacations it increases.. KPMG gives a declaration well in advance in it..




Participant 37: Ranjana... I have a different view about CRP, though their reports are good, but they really do delay in sending reports even if it is of residence check.




Participant 37: @Participant 38..can you share the rates of KPMG and Authbridge..?




Participant 37: Please send me separately.




Moderator3: So, KPMG is a clear winner and followed by IDfy and FADV




Participant 38: Sorry Sunil..I Don’t have it handy.. These were in my previous organisations..
KPMG is around 2500/- for 2/3 employers (HR & Business), education, database check.
Authbridge is around 2800/- odd something




Participant 39: FADV is expensive... And not flexible at all




Participant 39: Again, it depends on what all checks you need ... Varies from 1700 to 5000..




Participant 39: In fact education and previous employment would be in range of 1200 to 1500 then it depends on what all you wish to add.




Participant 38: After a bad experience in 2 organisations & many cases, I shall never recommend FADV.
They moved to Bangalore suddenly and laid off many employees. The way they did it was also highly unprofessional.




[24/12 21:53] Participant 33: That a very good preventive step



[24/12 21:54] Participant 33: Request you to find more details about this from the person who posted that message...how to subscribe for fake companies list.




[24/12 21:54] Participant 33: And if possible also fake universities list




[24/12 21:57] Participant 33: We are in the process of dumping FADV...there has been a steep decline in their service in the last 1 year




[24/12 21:58] Participant 33: CRP is quite good - this is based on past experience.




[24/12 22:03] ‪Moderator: Fake university list on line...




[24/12 22:03] ‪Moderator: available...


Govind: The list is insufficient and outdated.


[24/12 22:04] Participant 33: I'm very curious about 1 thing...suppose 1 person works for 3 different companies over a span of 10 yrs...BV check is done in all 3 companies say thru FADV...education is a common check in all 3 companies...so does a BV Company conduct education check with university all 3 times or they have a database which they use but still charge us for the check




[24/12 22:04] ‪Moderator: Sunil...Can u post that msg I will get u connected to member.




[24/12 22:04] Participant 4: I would suggest we should desist from taking any name of agency.




[24/12 22:05] Participant 33: Sorry...but I saw many names in the post




[24/12 22:05] Participant 40: We are making point of coordinated background verification.




[24/12 22:07] Participant 33: We do all of the above...100% verification of all components including employment, education, criminal, reference, global database, cibil, address (physical), ROC check for previous employers...and we employ a Big 4 firm to do it. Have worked with FADV too, there are some smaller good firms like A Check Global and IDfy too...IDfy is awesome...offer a very good online platform. The time taken is always worth the risk...our process is such that we  initiate beforehand if docs r received else after DoJ...either ways risk is eliminated within a month. Also, we pay for it from HR budget, bulk cases help manage the cost. Glad to say that I am one of those who influenced Business and Finance to opt for this and we have zero tolerance for Red cases except for the genuine ones where risk is documented and written off. Of course we work with business for replacement before exiting in most cases. Some pockets like Hyderabad contribute to 70-80% of the Red BACKGROUND VERIFICATION cases we receive and this has been my observation over the past decade too. We subscribe to a list of fake companies which is circulated to the recruiters to refer too before offering the candidate thereby reducing the risk and instances of Red cases. Fake docs and companies continue to be the biggest contributors to such cases. I am a firm believer in deterrence where the risk cannot be eliminated, it keeps fake cases away.


                           

[24/12 22:08] Participant 33: Ashish, this one specifies subscribing to some fake companies lists and checking against it as part of hiring process.




[24/12 22:09] Govind Sharma: When I do verification, I do verification of referees too, and ensure that they respond through official mail id




[24/12 22:16] Govind Sharma: How to measure Employee's level of Engagement?"....what are the different ways do organizations use to measure employees engagement levels http://blog.simplycareer.net/2014/12/measuringemployeeengagement.html



[24/12 22:17] Govind Sharma: Above article is for yesterdays discussion




[24/12 22:17] ‪Moderator: Vijayji...its feedback of actual user...n every1 has their own view point...




[24/12 22:19] Participant 33: Awesome Govind...big help for folks like me who were unable to be part of some of the daily discussions...really appreciated



[24/12 22:24] Participant 33: One of the reputed agencies advised us to go for court checks instead of police verification specifying that police verification is for only 1 police station and depends on the whims of the local police staff.



[24/12 22:24] Participant 33: This was a few years ago.




[24/12 22:25] Participant 33: Also the TAT differs from 1 police station to another




[24/12 22:31] ‪Discussion Proposor: That is correct




[24/12 22:35] Participant 33: But some clients insist on police verification only and not ready to agree to the court checks as a substitute,




[24/12 22:37] ‪Discussion Proposor: Get some material from your vendor to justify it.




[24/12 22:37] ‪Discussion Proposor: We moved away from Police verification in 2009







[24/12 22:39] Participant 33: Oh, so you do courts checks only now??? Good to know. I will also take this up with our agency and such clients.




[24/12 22:41] ‪Discussion Proposor: You can do both, criminal and civil litigation court record check




[24/12 22:43] Participant 27: Hi Sunil can u share more details on court check... For my reference.




[24/12 22:44] Participant 33: Ashish, only found some blogs on list of fake companies...not sure how reliable these will be...quite keen to know if there is some place to get an authentic list on subscription basis especially if it does not cost much.
[24/12 22:45] Participant 33: I would request Prasad to do that since we did not start court checks but continued with police verification.




[24/12 22:50] Govind Sharma: Thanks all. I think you can do background verification during interview process only. Ask candidate from lesser known company to provide list of the clients they worked contact person over there, name of the project. It is difficult for someone to fake at such large extent





[24/12 22:52] Participant 33: Rezorce check is a new upcoming bengaluru based vendor with good TAT.




[24/12 22:53] Participant 33: They have a penalty clause for not meeting TAT...liked that confidence...we have engaged them lately...too early to comment




[24/12 22:54] ‪Discussion Proposor: During court record check the regional / local court cases are checked....normally, any pending case is covered for any period and disposed off cases are covered for a specific period e.g. 10 yrs.



[24/12 22:54] Govind Sharma: Also, once candidate shortlisted for the offer, I usually prefer to call the board line of current organisation and ask the front desk to connect . it works and I saved from hiring at least two people at Senior management level they had been terminated for fraud and poor performance.



[24/12 22:55] ‪Discussion Proposor: This is better than Police verification...but again dependancy on the vendor's tie up.




[24/12 22:55] Govind Sharma: Ask them to bring CIBIL record it has records of all addresses so easy to carry out police verification too
[24/12 22:57] Participant 33: Nice inputs




[24/12 22:57] Participant 33: Very Useful




[24/12 22:59] ‪Discussion Proposor: Though its not full proof, better than police verification




[24/12 23:01] Govind Sharma: It helps in police verification as it has all address on record for the last 7 years also can search their social networking profile,what they comment, what they write it also provides more inputs




[24/12 23:05] Participant 4: Oracle HCM Cloud has a analytics tool in its Talent Mgt module which gives candidates social profile by going thru FB, Twitter, etc 
Govind perhaps was referring something like this.




[24/12 23:08] Participant 27: Thank u Prasad for the info




[24/12 23:08] ‪Discussion Proposor: NSR was one of the good initiative, but it did not see true success




[24/12 23:08] Participant 33: Awesome tool




[24/12 23:12] ‪Discussion Proposor: None of us...group 1 and 2 discussed about NSR




[25/12 13:31] Govind Sharma: Sorry friends, just an extension of yesterday's discussion, as Ashish said, fake university list is online,  but the list from the UGC has list of hardly 22 institutes thats too only universities, whereas I have compiled list of around 150   fake institutes globally + around 50 degree selling universities and around 60 fake Boards. The list adds up every day and I keep a close watch on them. Even few state universities like Periyar, Madurai Kamraj, few centers of Madras involved in such scams of degree from money. Why are we forgetting the NMIMS scandal where dummy people gave entrance and somebody else (the real one), they complete the course even get the job. Sorry, may be I am harsh, but was the evaluation system and hiring system of NMIMS and those company who wanted "tier 1" institute did not take enough precaution? Did they just get influenced by the "tier 1" tag? I think, considering this enforcing a strict background verification and strong assessment is mandatory






Thats all for today. Please share your comment and express your view. Please feel free to write for any query.

Govind
Mumbai
December 25, 2014

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